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Laurenz Langer: Hello, everybody. Good morning, afternoon and evening, I think.

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Laurenz Langer: Colleagues are joining us from different time zones and slowly trickling in

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Laurenz Langer: So 60 seconds.

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Laurenz Langer: For everyone to arrive and then we'll finally get going to be a very exciting.

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Laurenz Langer: Session on evidence. Evidence use

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Laurenz Langer: Just as we wait for a few people to join I will just introduce myself.

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Laurenz Langer: I'm a senior researcher.

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Laurenz Langer: At the Africe Center for Evidence in Johannesburg and I'll be your chair as I'm actully ceremonial and the real leaders of today. Sorry, you can only see up there on the screen. And I'll introduce you in a second to

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Laurenz Langer: Brilliant. So I think I can see from the participants numbers that if it's not done a little bit. So I think we have most of us here. So, let us get going for we have a packed agenda.

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Laurenz Langer: So welcome very much to this CEDIL webinar on evaluating research uptake and impact; juggling evidence, politics and uncertainty.

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Laurenz Langer: It's very exciting session zooming in on the role of politics plays in evidence use and also the revelation of such us and I think we can all agree that in the context of COVID this issue of evidence in politics has become ever more present. So it's certainly very timely session.

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Laurenz Langer: Just some very quick housekeeping to make sure we on the same page. If this is your first CEDIL webinar.

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Laurenz Langer: Very quick intro to CEDIL. So CEDIL stands for the Center of Excellence for Development, Impact and Learning.

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Laurenz Langer: And is an international research center establish to fill evidence gaps an impact evaluation methods and evidence in international development field.

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Laurenz Langer: And it was established to funding from the UK Foreign, Commonwealth and Development office. So we have three speakers today.

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Laurenz Langer: And I will start us off with amazing stories for 10 minutes each on evidence us and politics.

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Laurenz Langer: And after the fact, from the stories within going to 20 minutes has been a discussion where we try to connect some of these issues coming out of these studies.

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Laurenz Langer: And then we have 20 minutes for an open q&a afterwards. And that's really where your chance to participate. And there's two ways in which you can

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Laurenz Langer: Make your comments and questions heard. So the first one in particular for questions we'd encourage you to put these in the Q and A button.

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Laurenz Langer: And if you have a more substantial comment or if you have a question that needs a lot of explaining then I encourage you to raise your hand and you'll have some mic 

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Laurenz Langer: To make your pitch. So that's really it from an IT perspective and I hope we don't have any any glitches. So very briefly on our three speakers.

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Laurenz Langer: So we've got Chris Roche, Professor of Development Practice at La Trobe University in Melbourne. We've got Yanuar Nugroho, intellectual academic advisor at the center of innovation policy and governance in Jakarta and we've got Sandy Oliver, Professor of Public Policy.

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Laurenz Langer: Institute of Education at University College London.

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Laurenz Langer: I think they have some amazing bios. So if you want to know a little bit more, you can go to CEDIL website for the webinar. But what's really striking is the vast experience they have

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Laurenz Langer: On evidence use across different sectors from within government, from within the NGO sector and from in academia and the relations between these

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Laurenz Langer: So I think a wealth of experience and I'm really excited to learn more from them are running on. I said, we'll start with Chris, then Yanuar and then Sandy. So Chris, I'll hand over to you

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Laurenz Langer: Thanks.

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Chris Roche: Laurence. Hi, my name is Chris Roche, I'm talking to you from Wurundjeri land here in Melbourne, Australia, and I pay my respects to the traditional owners of the land I'm speaking from and elders past and present.

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Chris Roche: I'm really the warm up act for two very interesting speakers and you're free to ask them any of the really difficult questions. Now, when I first shared some of the work the institute I direct here in Australia was doing in the area of research and policy uptake.

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Chris Roche: I suggested to Howard whether that might be of interest to him and he suggested that he thought this would make a good topic for a webinar so

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Chris Roche: We're about to find out if he was actually right. Um, so the team. I've been involved in be been involved in a number of projects, exploring the monitoring and evaluation of policy engagement and uptake. This has involved

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Chris Roche: A project with Oxford University supporting their policy engagement team and helping researchers get their heads around monitoring and evaluation of their engagement in policy.

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Chris Roche: Reviewing the m&e processes have a policy reform program run by the Asia Foundation in the Philippines called coalitions for change, which is quite well known in the international development arena

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Chris Roche: An action research initiative to explore the use of research and international development. Funded by the Australian research for development impact network which explored the organization and brought a contextual factors at play in enabling research uptake

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Chris Roche: And Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade funded research program, the developmental leadership program, which has a grandly titled embedded research impact project as part of its design.

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Chris Roche: Also known as a PhD scholar. Hi, which well Krishna and a piece of real time research on how local development practitioners in the Pacific, and particularly m&e specialists.

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Chris Roche: Are expiring, the effects of covid 19 on their work and organizations. So what are we learning from this range of work with researchers research brokers HR policy reformers and end users. I think there are three

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Chris Roche: Most interesting kind of issues I'd like to raise that to get the discussion going.

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Chris Roche: So the first is around the, the researchers view of the monitoring, evaluation and policy uptake. The second is the types of monitoring, evaluation and approaches which seem appropriate in this space.

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Chris Roche: And the third is the opportunities and challenges that COVID provides and so on. Researchers view of m&e research and what's called in the UK, the impact agenda.

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Chris Roche: Largely what I heard, what we heard is bureaucratic box ticking not at all useful.

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Chris Roche: I wish we'd actually thought about it in the first place, isn't research on research, a bit of a luxury?

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Chris Roche: That was the kind of initial reaction. But when we push through that and ask them about how they learned and adapted as they went. They talked

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Chris Roche: About the much more intuitive flexible iterative ways of working and learning by doing that they valued in this area.

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Chris Roche: Interesting and this is not dissimilar to the reactions that frontline development practitioners about extractive monitoring, evaluation systems that don't help them learn

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Chris Roche: And it seems that tapping into intrinsic motivation as much as extrinsic motivation of both researchers and end users seems particularly important, and that means that informal institutional authorizing environments which enable that kind of intrinsic motivation seems to be key.

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Chris Roche: They also mentioned the politics of research and evidence, the politics of funding allocation and decisions in valuing certain forms and types of knowledge data and methodology or in the use non use or misuse of research and what some call grim packed.

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Chris Roche: As well as the politics of monitoring, evaluation. So who defines the purposes of evaluation, whether it's symbolic, political, bureaucratic.

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Chris Roche: The selections of projects and programs that are evaluated, the selection of evaluators and their self interests, and the use again use non use or misuse of findings. So I kind of rich picture from from researchers

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Chris Roche: Now on to the types of monitoring evaluation that seems to be appropriate. I think that the review, we did have the conditions for change programming in the Philippines was particularly interesting

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Chris Roche: So they use some very simple tools around collecting basic simple timeline, basic data on who they're talking to

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Chris Roche: What changes they're observing and then they use a more kind of more sophisticated process tracing exercises using an external researcher or on a six monthly basis.

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Chris Roche: So it's very much interative learning by doing, and relatively simple gathering of data by staff, not by the coalition's that they are supporting

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Chris Roche: And based on calls, photos, links to newspaper articles normally using Facebook WhatsApp Viper etc, is very much part of keeping this simple and it seems to be

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Chris Roche: More successful that much more complicated programs that try and do this. Action research approach is also seem to be working more

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Chris Roche: Effectively, in the sense of when they're combined with a good initial political economy analysis and then trialing different strategies and revising them in the lives of learning that seems to be working well, particularly when it's supported by

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Chris Roche: Sensitive action researchers, but in fact many of these tools and processes commonly identified with adaptive programs and those thinking,

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Chris Roche: Seeking to think of work politically also applies to the monitoring and evaluation of policy uptake.

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Chris Roche: Power mapping, stakeholder engagement, trialing and testing strategies, assessing changes in relationships networks, and Coalition's and framing and findings in politically savvy ways all would seem to be important.

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Chris Roche: But maybe this wouldn't be surprise if we accept that the inherently political nature and evaluation.

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Chris Roche: So the final point here is really thinking about interventions in space, which are often described as small bets.

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Chris Roche: And therefore, when I'm thinking about this. I'm thinking that the analogy of chess, which has a great degree of kind of certainty and strategy or snakes and ladders, which is all chance

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Chris Roche: There's something slightly in the middle here and I think maybe Texas Hold'em poker is the analogy that's the most useful.

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Chris Roche: Here there's a mix of strategy and experience there is asymmetrical or partial information even after you've played a hand. You don't know what your what your opponent had, reading the room and sensing what your opponents are going to do is important.

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Chris Roche: But also chance plays a fine role and so poker players, talk about the dangers of resulting, of drawing too tight a connection between results of the hand and how well it's been played because they recognize that if you just assess how well you play the hand on the basis of

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Chris Roche: whether you want it or lose it. Then you eliminate you eliminate the role of chance, so there's an interesting question for me there about heretical maybe do we draw to Title line but engagement in the policy process and outcomes.

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Chris Roche: They also talked quite a lot about commitment devices so they don't lose too much in one night, do we need commitment devices that get us out and policy processes that are going in the wrong direction.

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Chris Roche: As well as those that keep us engaged.

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Chris Roche: And does this mean for focusing on process and portfolio outcomes as opposed to indeed individual project outcomes. Clearly, if a poker player isn't winning over a six month or a year period, you're going to go out of business.

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Chris Roche: But they don't look at each hand and measure their progress on the basis of single hands.

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Chris Roche: So finally, new opportunities and challenges with COVID in the Pacific local

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Chris Roche: Monitor evaluation practitioners are experiencing highly contradictory processes.

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Chris Roche: On the one hand, they're experiencing massive but uncoordinated demand for more information, more data. What's going on from international agencies and many consultants and researchers.

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Chris Roche: But the same time they're finding more space for them to have meetings in local languages, to use local methods and storytelling, culturally accepted processes of dialogue and then real fear is that actually that space might close once we go back to normal.

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Chris Roche: Another interesting example is the the secretary of the Pacific community is is is developed what they call a rebel lib framework for monitoring, evaluation in the Pacific. They've used

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Chris Roche: This framework weaves together approaches and methodology from different Pacific countries, including one based on the ancient navigation as the measure methods of the master sailors the Marshall Islands.

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Chris Roche: And this is created a huge sense of local ownership and pride in monitoring, evaluation and, dare I say it, therefore intrinsic motivation.

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Chris Roche: And that has gained momentum, not just because of COVID, but because of also because of the debates on Black Lives Matter and the decolonization of development and research which are gaining ground in this part of the world.

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Chris Roche: So, all of which turns up some really interesting questions for organizations. I think like CEDIL, for m&a practitioners for researchers to seek to influence policy and practice, through the use of evidence.

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Chris Roche: It seems that political demands for certainty and predictability and narrow views on how this can be achieved can result, not just in brittle processes and decision making.

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Chris Roche: As Andy how Dan has argued so eloquently about the Bank of England and the global financial crisis.

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Chris Roche: But they also foreclose alternative futures and this includes within the monitoring, evaluation space.

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Chris Roche: Many seem to recognize the complexity and uncertainty requires multiple perspectives and worldviews to be brought to bear and deliberative spaces and dialogue to be created between them.

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Chris Roche: The question in this political environment is can we do some would ask, should we balance these rightful challenges to the status quo and dominant narratives

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Chris Roche: While at the same time avoiding fanning the flames of further attacks on science and the role of experts. So that's me, over to you Yanuar.

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Yanuar Nugroho: Thank you very much, Chris.

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Yanuar Nugroho: Hello everyone.

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Yanuar Nugroho: Let me start with a

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Yanuar Nugroho: disclaimer that what I'm going to share with you is a combination or mix between the story from the field and my reflection academic reflection, if I may say so, because I think Chris has already

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Yanuar Nugroho: shared with us, the bigger picture of how science, how research can really influence or to the extent to which it can really influence the

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Yanuar Nugroho: policymaking. So let me tell you a story from this context, this is my country, Indonesia, this is the context where after living in the UK for 12 years I came back home and serve two presidents and four chief of staff for seven years.

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Yanuar Nugroho: I experienced firsthand how policy is being made. I experienced firsthand. In fact, I, I cannot count how many times I was first ready to see that what I believe we should do, but actually we couldn't do it because I think

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Yanuar Nugroho: This is the bitter truth, or bitter fact of policy, and I think it's not new for all of us.

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Yanuar Nugroho: Public Policy is anything a government chooses to do or not to do, it is not just about what government choose to do, but also what government chooses not

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Yanuar Nugroho: To, always linked to certain issues

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Yanuar Nugroho: Problems that become the concern of the society, but we know that governments horizon is limited.

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Yanuar Nugroho: The world we live in now becomes more complex. We experience more problem, everything becomes more complicated and the perspective, the
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Yanuar Nugroho: Price of the government is limited. This is why it needs the government needs inputs from the research world because,

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Yanuar Nugroho: below that line is my reflection after you know you, if you look at the pictures right, this is how we conduct meeting in the office of the president with a chief of staff. Usually when we have a problem. That's how we try to solve it.

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Yanuar Nugroho: There are tensions that policymakers have to live with a freedom.

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Yanuar Nugroho: And that tensions, if I may.

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Yanuar Nugroho: Try to, you know, conceptualize, there are three one between the substance and the articulation of communication. We know the substance, but we have to be able to communicate it to the people, to the society.

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Yanuar Nugroho: When you deal with policy are we dealing with the substance. How do we communicate this this this is the first tension. The second tension is between the politics and the technocratic.

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Yanuar Nugroho: President have his own political efficient, which always has technocratic implications when he said, for example, I would like to improve the

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Yanuar Nugroho: You know, the salary or the welfare of my civil service. You have to be able to calculate what is the impact to the state budget. So when you create policy this. The second tension, politics and economic to between the interest of the elite.

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Yanuar Nugroho: Of the populice.

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Yanuar Nugroho: This is the tension that policymakers have to lift.

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Yanuar Nugroho: And I think we know this and we know be question and the elephant in the room, we assume research

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Yanuar Nugroho: Have or has positive feelings with policy.

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Yanuar Nugroho: While we know and I can testify here research happens in the intellectual moments while policy.

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Yanuar Nugroho: Is being made in the political moments. These two worlds, the world of resets and the world of policy.

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Yanuar Nugroho: They do not link bait to not really connect in Latin non sequitur we can make them we can bring them closer

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Yanuar Nugroho: How? We can make sure that the research is being communicated using the policymakers language, for example through policy briefs.

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Yanuar Nugroho: The other way around. We can we can try to increase, to improve the quality of our policymakers. I'm not saying that our policymakers have to be PhDs. No.

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Yanuar Nugroho: But we know the difference in the quality in the political debate when two parties are, I would say, exposed to academic tradition of debate, because I think

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Yanuar Nugroho: What is at stake is this. These are the three biggest challenges in the government, as I understand, at least in Indonesia, three, one, the absence of coordination and silent approach second, political bargain in the absence of evidence. This is why it is important and timely.

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To discuss it now.

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Yanuar Nugroho: And I think COVID 19 just give us a perfect context about this, and lack of discipline in the implementation. This is why we should champion knowledge to policy.

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Yanuar Nugroho: Because, this is my last point, I'm going to make here in my limited time I think policy affects, implicates the relations between the citizens and government

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Yanuar Nugroho: In my understanding, at least, there are four levels. The first level perhaps at the surface.

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Yanuar Nugroho: It's the question of capability or capacity of the government.

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Yanuar Nugroho: With a certain policy citizens can question, is my government is the government capable of doing or not doing this, it is the question about capability.

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Yanuar Nugroho: For example, you decide to lock down a city or you decide to lock down a province or even a country.

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Yanuar Nugroho: Is my government capable of doing this or not?

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Yanuar Nugroho: 2 question is about the authority. So it is question about credibility.

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Yanuar Nugroho: Does my government have the authority in doing this, why imposing lockdown. Why not increasing the number of tests, why not imposing tracing. For example, in the context of

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Yanuar Nugroho: Covid. Thirs level of the relations between citizen and government is about more efficient.

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Yanuar Nugroho: In Indonesia in July, August, government decided to start opening up some most markets and even schools, although not in a full capacity, people started to question where the government is doing this is it. Well, I'm not so it is the question about motivation.

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Yanuar Nugroho: And last, because policy can implicates or can affect trust from citizens to the government can the government be trusted. When they do or not do this. So I think

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Yanuar Nugroho: And Sandy and ladies and gentlemen, friends, I think this is my reflection from serving my own government as a scholar being appointed to sit in the public office.

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Yanuar Nugroho: I understand that this is not easy, not always easy, but I think my reflection.

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Yanuar Nugroho: takes me to a point where I realized, finally, that these two world, the world of the ideal, the world of research that we as academics live in and the world of real policy making process that of politics.

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Yanuar Nugroho: There they are there. There is a stark difference between these two, we cannot impose what is ideal to the real

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Yanuar Nugroho: We cannot dictate, rather what we can promote what we can do from a reflection is we can create the enabling conditions in which resets academic work can inform the policy making processes. So I end my study here over to you.

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Yanuar Nugroho: Sandy. Thank you.

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Yanuar Nugroho: Thank you very much.

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Sandy Oliver: Thank You and now I'm going to try and share my screen.

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Sandy Oliver: Okay, is that, let me put it on Slide Share

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Sandy Oliver: Okay, is that showing

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Sandy Oliver: Thank you.

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Sandy Oliver: Okay, so

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Sandy Oliver: Thank you very much. Tough acts to follow.

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Sandy Oliver: My presentation is heavily influenced by my background, being a systematic review geek, but my message is that even here. There's no escape from politics.

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Sandy Oliver: So this work, the work I'm going to present the ideas come from part of an ongoing project supported by CEDIL

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Sandy Oliver: And it builds on an earlier CEDIL project here.

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Sandy Oliver: Where we began with a really simple model of knowledge exchange.

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Sandy Oliver: And although the inner details of this model have developed a lot

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Sandy Oliver: The part that I'd like to discuss today is this outer red triangle, the social, cultural and political backdrop to all research and research uptake.

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Sandy Oliver: I'll be considering the interests power and politics that infuse all the work, whether we recognize it or not, and the institutions relationships and alliances that develop and shape the work and the different ideas cultures and worldviews that present real challenges.

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Sandy Oliver: So I'll start with interests power and politics.

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Sandy Oliver: We know that interests and power are distributed equally.

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Sandy Oliver: And we know that research that's available comes from, is influenced by interests and money and inevitably committed to making decisions about all this stuff. How they interact is heavily influenced by the hierarchies within them.

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Sandy Oliver: There are some solutions that are that are being worked up by different groups of people.

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Sandy Oliver: Thinking about what research is done we can

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Sandy Oliver: Take an equity lens to setting research priorities and to setting priorities for research translation trying to influence policy.

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Sandy Oliver: And equity loans can ask questions about the content of the research that's being considered, or possibly needed and it can ask questions about the processes for making decisions.

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Sandy Oliver: And also how to evaluate the outcomes of the priorities basically asking what we're looking at. And how we're doing it, who's involved and how much influence do they have

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Sandy Oliver: But asking questions in this way can be a minority interest so

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Sandy Oliver: A recent systematic review of prior to setting processes found that although health care providers and researchers are generally well represented

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Sandy Oliver: The other groups.

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Sandy Oliver: Public policymakers funders, the populations who would be affected. They were a little bit fit on the ground in these exercises which is rather disappointing. So I'll be the, the people who

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Sandy Oliver: Have to make decisions with with the findings or will be affected by those decisions. Ultimately,

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Sandy Oliver: And there's also recent systematic feel about patient involvement in priority setting.

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Sandy Oliver: Although lots of effort goes into involve in patients in priority setting. It's mainly been in high income countries, although there is an exciting example setting up in Uganda now on pause because of covert unfortunately

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Sandy Oliver: But in any case, for any of these exercises.

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Sandy Oliver: little attention has been paid to ethics or evaluation.

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Sandy Oliver: And for any of these any of these exercises, although their, their technical exercises. They're also interpersonal exercises.

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Sandy Oliver: They're all about how people work together the positions that they take the authority that individuals have the different sets of knowledge that they hold

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Sandy Oliver: And none of this can do be done well if there, if time isn't devoted to sharing all the different knowledge sets that the participants have and giving time to making good decisions. And there's systematic review evidence about that for the geeks amongst us

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Sandy Oliver: And all these activities are shaped by institutions relationships and alliances.

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Sandy Oliver: Unfortunately,

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Sandy Oliver: These don't always work terribly well

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Sandy Oliver: Research produced is often seen as either inaccessible or irrelevant to the people who might be well placed to use it.

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Sandy Oliver: We found working with them systematic review teams supported by

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Sandy Oliver: What was the Department for International Development. Now, the Department of Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office.

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Sandy Oliver: That there was greater impact from systematic reviews. When the policy implications were written, clearly. Well, what a surprise. So why were some of them not written clearly

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Sandy Oliver: More interesting that also seems spirit a trend towards

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Sandy Oliver: Greater greater use when there's more policy input into shaping the questions and interpreting the findings, which I think gives us an interesting work to look at about how to work together better

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Sandy Oliver: We also need to think about institutional systems and whether we're embedding procedures into institutions about involving

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Sandy Oliver: A range of people who might influence what institutions are doing

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Sandy Oliver: Unfortunately,

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Sandy Oliver: Institutions that work well and efficient have procedures embedded and that sometimes mitigates against innovation. The two don't always go well together. So sometimes we can have

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Sandy Oliver: Qualitative research that can

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Sandy Oliver: Give the give voice to the people affected by decisions.

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Sandy Oliver: Can be sliced and

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Sandy Oliver: divvied up to match the catalog is that fit effectiveness research better and thereby loses its strength of its power of explanation.

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Sandy Oliver: So even though more qualitative research is being drawn on for decisions. Quite often, it's not the best part of it the most. It has to offer that's been drawn on the innovation is being held back by procedures and systems that are actually embedded in institutions.

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Sandy Oliver: One of the solutions for moving with the times when there's an innovation is actually embedding innovation.

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Sandy Oliver: And embedding public value in the work of our institutions.

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Sandy Oliver: So embedding incentives for looking outwards.

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Sandy Oliver: Having sophisticated knowledge management systems so that we can look around and being more flexible.

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Sandy Oliver: Being able to respond to things that are changing outside

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Sandy Oliver: That's quite a big ask and assessing public value in terms of what outcomes are achieved, but also the the trust and legitimacy of organizations and and what they deliver

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Sandy Oliver: And of course those institutions have influenced my ideas cultures and world views that spawned from

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Sandy Oliver: The generalizable knowledge that we share frequently through systematic reviews through

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Sandy Oliver: Evidence informed guidelines that knowledge is very different for the locally rooted knowledge.

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Sandy Oliver: That might be used for local decisions. Quite often, it's two completely different sets of people that gather around generalizable knowledge and locally rooted knowledge and yet the two different groups.

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Sandy Oliver: They have a huge amount of each other and to learn from each other.

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Sandy Oliver: The knowledge for technical decisions can be very different from the knowledge for social decisions.

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Sandy Oliver: And yet, technology is embedded in social processes. The two can't be separated in practice they might even if they're separated when we analyze them intellectually

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Sandy Oliver: And only analyzing technical decisions intellectually just isn't good enough.

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Sandy Oliver: The institutions that are so influential are largely driven by professional norms and largely driven by the global north

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Sandy Oliver: The Global North when it's

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Sandy Oliver: Just not thinking about

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Sandy Oliver: How the world might be seen in different ways.

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Sandy Oliver: Actually, even in the global north be influential professionals, sometimes not thinking about how their world might be seen differently from people around the corner, who are not part of their institution.

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Sandy Oliver: And that's why I'm actually using the term locally rooted knowledge rather than indigenous knowledge.

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Sandy Oliver: I think that some of the challenges.

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Sandy Oliver: When evidence informed.

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Sandy Oliver: Initiatives meet indigenous groups.

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Sandy Oliver: The huge huge challenges.

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Sandy Oliver: But they're not inherently different from some of the challenges when evidence for knowledge meets local knowledge nearer to home.

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Sandy Oliver: There are there are solutions to this that we're really only just beginning to embark on and that is thinking carefully about the governance of knowledge and how we have what is legitimate knowledge.

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Sandy Oliver: What legitimacy does generalizable knowledge have on What legitimacy does locally rooted knowledge have

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Sandy Oliver: Too often

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Sandy Oliver: research looks at the functional benefits of programs without taking into account the emotional and spiritual implications of them.

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Sandy Oliver: We can't look at functional emotional and spiritual together unless we take a more holistic attitude towards what knowledge is and who holds it and who we need to bring together.

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Sandy Oliver: To mix these villages and get the best from them. We need well worked up processes to do that. And we've got huge challenges barriers in terms of language and different working cultures.

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Sandy Oliver: One of the

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Sandy Oliver: Huge barriers is time time scales, what we think about are we thinking about

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Sandy Oliver: Next week, next month, next year. The next 10 years people think in some different time scales, then this time that we need enough time for questioning issues listening reflecting together and cultivating relationships.

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Sandy Oliver: It's time that

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Sandy Oliver: Doesn't always appear in a project plan, which is absolutely essential and we need to learn how to choose times for different groups to work together.

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Sandy Oliver: Conveniently for everybody.

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Sandy Oliver: These are real cultural barriers to overcome.

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Sandy Oliver: So in conclusion,

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Sandy Oliver: When assessing research uptake or use politics with a small p is absolutely inescapable inequalities are inherent in both the content of the research that's used and in the procedures for the research outtake

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Sandy Oliver: And this raises questions about whether evidence institutions have inclusive membership and inclusive proceed processes for a pricing and debating evidence, whether they have regular and collective reflection and evaluation.

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Sandy Oliver: Whether they have procedures for addressing inequalities and power relations, such as skilled facilitators.

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Sandy Oliver: Whether they have incentives for inclusion curiosity and sequel multiple perspectives.

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Sandy Oliver: And whether they have a culture that's conducive to looking outwards.

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Sandy Oliver: A culture of informal norms, not just the formal rules.

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Sandy Oliver: So these are important questions for all of us working in this area, and we'll be finding answers to them bit by bit painfully moving forwards. Thank you.

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Laurenz Langer: So, so much for the Sandy, Yanuar and Chris, I think if we were here and personally, you'd have lots of applause. So I'm just telling some virtual applause and lots of things. This was hugely inside for

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Laurenz Langer: We heard a lot about trust legitimacy, different types of knowledge capacity even programme evidence use. So I think there's a lot, a lot.

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Laurenz Langer: Your stories and I see that the questions are coming in already a quick reminder that

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Laurenz Langer: The Q and A's slot makes it easiest, fastest and top of of the questions. But yeah, because there's some of the chat, but feel free to use this process easier and we'll collect these

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Laurenz Langer: So I think I have the pleasure now to quiz you for the for the next 15 minutes or so. So I should use the time wisely.

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Laurenz Langer: And I think maybe to get us going. And that's just coming back to, I think, how we are to phrase the webinar initially to make sure we're not raising expectations that we can meet

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Laurenz Langer: The initial effort. So we'll talk a little bit about what what has COVID changed about this. So my first question to the three of you each would be

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Laurenz Langer: In this arena where politics is dancing with evidence and other factors and context. And Chris made stance on this to poker.

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Laurenz Langer: What has changed in your experience through COVID, has COVID changed anything, amplified anything or is COVID a non factor. So it would be lovely to hear from each of you quick reflection on what covert as a contextual factors crisis has changed in this arena.

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Chris Roche: So you want me to start Laurenz?

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Laurenz Langer: Yeah, maybe, maybe, let's go. We can have the same order. So it will be fun. Yeah.

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Chris Roche: So, I mean, I think, as I was saying, one of the things that's very clear in the in the in the Pacific, and I think it's important to speak about Pacific because normally on

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Chris Roche: conversations like this, to be honest, the Pacific doesn't figure, it often figures as an appendage to Asia. Sorry, you know, but Asia Pacific, you know, if for the Pacific Islanders. It's not a great feel, but I think in the Pacific, because the cases of COVID have been so low.

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Chris Roche: It's a kind of interesting of the 10 or 15 countries in the world with no cases 10 of them are in the Pacific, and so they've been hit hard with

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Chris Roche: Those economies, who have been a reliance on tourism in particular been hit hard, but but what I was trying to suggest is that I mean all of the expert technical assistance advisors went home.

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Chris Roche: And basically programs carried on. And those programs that had invested in local staff, local networks, local knowledge over the years, adapted very well.

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Chris Roche: They changed and could adapt because they had the inbuilt learning system, if you like, and relationships that allow them to do that.

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Chris Roche: And the way they talk about me is m&e as a means of learning and adaptation and coping with shocks.

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Chris Roche: And so for them. This takes me into a not the technical appraisal of a project but into

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Chris Roche: The learning and adaptation that's at the center of kind of social change and development processes and for some of them as I was trying to allude to earlier.

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Chris Roche: They felt kind of liberated in some sense from not being watched over by technocratic managers in some senses. They've been liberated to think a bit differently work a bit differently.

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Chris Roche: But also that leads to them, posing questions about why did we put up with some of the stuff we weren't putting up with

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Chris Roche: So why did we have meetings in English, just because we had an advisor, he's faking it. When all the rest of us would have been happy having a meeting in local languages.

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Chris Roche: And so they're starting to ask themselves questions about past practice and what they had accepted and new practice and what they want to protect if and when

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Chris Roche: The world goes back to normal. So I think that's the most striking thing for me about what we've been observing in this space in the Pacific and I'm, you know you're not claiming it anywhere else.

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Yanuar Nugroho: And I continue Lawrence. In the case of Indonesia. I think the questions of what has or has COVID change anything.

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Yanuar Nugroho: To me gifts MIXED FEELINGS BECAUSE

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Yanuar Nugroho: On the one hand, I think. Never before I observe or I witness sets awareness of so many different groups of people.

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Different groups of stakeholders.

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Yanuar Nugroho: Both in the government, outside the government about the importance of the use of data and evidence

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Yanuar Nugroho: And how data and evidence, I think, for the first time enters the public discourse on how that I live it in should be used for policy.

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Yanuar Nugroho: I'm not sure how much you are aware of or quite informal. But what happened in Indonesia, but the government was once criticized

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Yanuar Nugroho: To be empty science because the approach of the government was taught or deemed to be, you know, not using the evidence or even misuse the evidence in the early days of

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Yanuar Nugroho: COVID or announcement that the government that in Indonesia, that there were cases, even the way the data being open or the data being available for the people was was was not, I would say not to the level that was expected for anyone to do any analysis.

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So,

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Yanuar Nugroho: And even to do to make it worse. It was only in March 2020 that the Government finally admitted that they were that there were

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Yanuar Nugroho: Cases in Indonesia, while in many different parts in even in Southeast Asia, other countries started to to to acknowledge and even the beginning of the year. So this is one thing that I see quite interesting that awareness of the importance of data and evidence in policy is

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Yanuar Nugroho: You know, at the level. It was never there before.

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Yanuar Nugroho: But also, on the other hand, at the same time, I think of it has has changed something in the way the government

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Yanuar Nugroho: Create

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Yanuar Nugroho: Policies, if, if I may say, oh, I, I made term like sort of

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Yanuar Nugroho: It gives blank check for the policy, for example, or the allocation of budget when you Chris and Sandy, you mentioned about the importance of policy, the government allocate

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Yanuar Nugroho: Quite lots of money for conflict response, but very rarely discussion on the evaluation of the policy. Well, actually it is quite important for us.

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Yanuar Nugroho: Not just in terms of accountability, but also to evaluate the policy itself. So if you ask me has COVID change anything in the Indonesian policymaking landscape. Yes, one

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Yanuar Nugroho: It creates a level of awareness of the people about the importance of identities that second it. Also, I would say it if blank check for policymakers to create policy somehow somewhat that may be able to escape from

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The accountability or evaluation criteria and the second point is what actually what is because you can use COVID as excuse

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Laurenz Langer: Thank you. Yeah.

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Laurenz Langer: Sandy, you're unmuted. We would like to comment on this.

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Sandy Oliver: Hi. Yes, thank you.

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Sandy Oliver: Laurenz. Well, I'm going to give a very

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Sandy Oliver: Personal response to how COVID it has made a difference.

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Sandy Oliver: For me, the very first thing that happened was a very fast refocusing on new priorities and this was possible by picking up on old trusted relationships we could start work very fast because we knew each other.

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Sandy Oliver: I also know that there was some new relationships made to work facing this new challenge and some of those relationships lasted and some didn't. And it's tough working together in times of change.

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Sandy Oliver: Even though we had new priorities we still had the old hierarchies, so that the old hierarchies that I came across

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Sandy Oliver: Was seeing that the life and death issues in any and intensive care, we're drawing greater attention than the life and death issues in the home.

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Sandy Oliver: The Life and Death issues from violence in the home or from palliative care in the home, even though the numbers suffering at home may well be higher than those in intensive care.

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Sandy Oliver: Then the next thing that changed for me was that the pandemic pandemic gave me a huge new understanding of issues that have been so unfamiliar before

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Sandy Oliver: I, I haven't lived through anything like it before or haven't lived through Ebola. I was in the middle of doing a systematic review on health systems resilience in the face of shocks.

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Sandy Oliver: It made it a much better review. I was a much better analyst because I could understand in a different way, not just intellectually reading the papers but experiencing something similar on a day to day basis. It gave me an extra sensitivity to really important issues.

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Sandy Oliver: It also living through it living through a pandemic makes it very clear.

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Sandy Oliver: How much we have in common.

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Sandy Oliver: All over the world. There was so much that we were experiencing that was similar, not in the same way, because we're in different countries and different cultures, but there was an awful lot of similar

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Sandy Oliver: I quite often see those commonalities because of my interest and experience of motherhood and there's a lot that motherhood shares globally as well. But it was interesting to see the commonalities that appeared because of the pandemic.

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Sandy Oliver: So I think that that that really was the bottom line, but it's still worth listening to each other, but more than anything we've got so much in common that hit me in the face. Okay.

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Laurenz Langer: Brilliant. Thank you so much. I mean, it's not in there and I see more questions are coming in.

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Laurenz Langer: Just a few takeaways, it's I think it's it's striking how much positives as in in this issue of COVID

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Laurenz Langer: Against All Odds are, and how it's evidence systems might be more resilient than you would have thought our relationship to be amplified how evidence the profile of evidence uses is raised

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Laurenz Langer: Quite a bit. Thanks so much. I've got one more question for each of you. And then we can get into the q&a

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Laurenz Langer: From the audience. And I think this is just picking up on on one issue that all three of you mentioned in in different ways. Either framed as equity on participation and I think Chris, you, you.

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Laurenz Langer: Educated or spot on around Black Lives Matter and the issue of the colonial it. So I think my question would be, for each of you, how do you see this changing politics outside of the field.

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Laurenz Langer: Changes changing our field itself.

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Laurenz Langer: So what does like last night, I mean for the evidence words. What does it mean for our community. How do we, how, how could we respond, how could we be changing how and are the systems these political systems that are coming from outside the field.

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Laurenz Langer: Are they coming inside our domain as well, and if so, how do we dance and interact with these so quick reflection on I think particular, what do you think these outside to the movements and systems coming up. What do they mean for the politics within the evidence world itself.

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Laurenz Langer: And maybe we can go on the same order. That's okay.

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Laurenz Langer: Wow, so

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Chris Roche: That's a big one.

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Chris Roche: I mean, the honest answer would be, I don't know.

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Chris Roche: About, sir.

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Chris Roche: I mean, I don't, but I don't think it's outside is the issue. I mean, I think it's inside and deeply problematic. And I think that, I mean, there are a number of sites as we've we're seeing now on 

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Chris Roche: Decolonizing development where we're seeing and hearing about within development agencies within universities, the massive inequalities. We've got on race.

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Chris Roche: On forums that knowledge that that aren't justified. And so I think the difficult discussions that were that are starting to happen. I think in a perfect world is a discussion on white privilege.

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Chris Roche: On in particular, how

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Chris Roche: We need to be confronted fighting the battles in our own parts of the ecosystem. We are in

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Chris Roche: And not leaving it to others to fight.

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Chris Roche: The battles we should be fighting, I think, is the key message that we're hearing from several Pacific colleagues and Pacific colleagues are saying to us.

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Chris Roche: If Australia, for example, can't reconcile with its own Aboriginal population, how the hell can it play a role as a good international citizen in this part of the world.

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Chris Roche: And that then sends a really critical message to all of us who work in international. We also work in the indigenous Australian space to think really seriously about what is our role in not just allowing the voice of others. But where do we stand, where do we stand up and confront

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Chris Roche: The unconscious bias. It might be institutional racism, we call it that we see in our own institutions every day.

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Thanks, Chris.

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Yanuar Nugroho: I don't know how to really answer the questions, Laurenz, but I think

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This is more of my reflection, understanding the

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Different paradigms are

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Different approach of these two words.

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Those to begin with.

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Yanuar Nugroho: I think in in research world or intellectual world, we can find solution. I know it may sound simplistic, but for sure. Two plus Two equals four, for whatever, no matter the context are

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Yanuar Nugroho: But in policymaking in the real political there is no permanent solution. Rather, I think what we are looking for is settlement.

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Yanuar Nugroho: Although they are important.

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Yanuar Nugroho: This is my understanding. I, I work on

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Different cases in the government. And then even when I tried to do my best to profile data provide evidence in the end when policies were mid

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Yanuar Nugroho: Actually, it is about finding settlements, rather than solution.

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Yanuar Nugroho: I think this is my core inflection how we as researchers, I resigned on the first of December. After helping my president to prepare the second version of the office of the president and then I decided

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Yanuar Nugroho: To leave the government and now I become a visiting professor in DC acid in Singapore.

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Yanuar Nugroho: And I have more time to really reflect what I had.

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Yanuar Nugroho: Gotten over the past seven years and I agree with Chris, I think it is important to also

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Yanuar Nugroho: I would say, you know, spirit cops among researchers among intellectuals are you like seeing

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Yanuar Nugroho: The magnitude of the influence they can make to the policy, but at the same time, realizing the limit

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Because otherwise, we may create more frustration.

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Yanuar Nugroho: What I understand here is that

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When, when you asked or when we asked about to what extent we can really make the teams, I think.

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Yanuar Nugroho: What we can do, again, if I may reiterate what I explained in my short presentation was to bring this to different worlds closer

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Yanuar Nugroho: I encourage my colleague to write more policy brief. I know that the

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Yanuar Nugroho: Way I used to write journals and it's not easy to write policy briefs, but you know my president instructed all of the ministry of the ministers, send me the reports two pages two pages. Can you imagine the complexity of development.

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Yanuar Nugroho: In

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Yanuar Nugroho: You know, condensed into this record, you can imagine the instruction for the ministers to the deputy deputies or Director General about the what

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Yanuar Nugroho: I am saying I'm not saying that, of course, our ultimate as a as an academic centers have is to contribute to knowledge and we should keep doing that for sure, but

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Yanuar Nugroho: I identify an important gap here that bringing the research closer to the policy, we may need more efforts in translating this to the policymakers language and from this part is, you know, exposing

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Improving the capacity of policymakers to understand more about the process that Sandy excellent Black's

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Sandy Oliver: Law, it's. That's a horrible question.

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Sandy Oliver: And again, I'm going to be very personal about this.

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Sandy Oliver: When I was growing up a long time ago.

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Sandy Oliver: In the UK,

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Sandy Oliver: Immigrants was seen as different and unknown.

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Sandy Oliver: Even very recently when I've written about indigenous knowledge peer review comments have framed it as exotic and irrelevant.

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Sandy Oliver: Both attitudes authoring people and knowledge.

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Sandy Oliver: And it doesn't help.

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Sandy Oliver: I know my own

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Sandy Oliver: Knowledge heritage has been deemed irrelevant in the past by obstetricians I came, I came to this area challenging obstetricians about what they knew about what works for pregnant women, and it certainly didn't involve asking pregnant women. Well,

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Sandy Oliver: We taught them something different.

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Sandy Oliver: But it took a while.

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Sandy Oliver: When I've had the privilege of engaging with people who've had very different backgrounds, from me, not just once, but getting to know individuals over time.

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Sandy Oliver: Said that I've learned what we share when I see them. Now, unlike when I was very youngest child. I don't see people are different. I see friends.

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Sandy Oliver: And because I see friends we get on and do work together that draws on our different backgrounds and weaves it together and we can make different contributions and do things.

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Sandy Oliver: Better than any of us could do individually.

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Sandy Oliver: Actually one of my greatest concerns about COVID is the impact that it's having on travel and the last opportunities to make friends.

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Sandy Oliver: It has, it has been good in that it's helped us interact virtually

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Sandy Oliver: But it's not the same as being in a room with somebody, the body language is lost the relationships aren't quite the same making new relationships virtually, it's not the same thing as making them in the same room so I think

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Sandy Oliver: I am concerned.

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Sandy Oliver: That there are, yeah. There are gains and there are losses and one of the biggest losses is how more difficult it's going to be to learn to work together.

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Sandy Oliver: And I mean, that's you know it's it's working together. That is inherently a human condition that helps helps us make progress and solve problems. I'm not sure if that answered your question, but

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Sandy Oliver: It was a really tough question.

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Laurenz Langer: Thanks a lot for that and my apologies for what appreciate was slightly appointed and difficult question to each of you.

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Laurenz Langer: He was so much in there, but I think just to set from so many things for such honest and personal answers and a half hearted person who hugely insightful. Thank you very much for those

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Laurenz Langer: So going from this to a slightly lighter note, I think, to the open Q and A's.

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Laurenz Langer: And we have five questions. And at the end, or that you've taken one already. Thank you so much. So I started with, with one for each of you and

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Laurenz Langer: I think we can see how many we we get to. So yeah, one, the one

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Laurenz Langer: That is in the chat for you. It's from the anon.

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Laurenz Langer: And it's asking about thinking about equity and inclusion. How much does the issue of identity of the researcher make a difference to likely impact.

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Laurenz Langer: Other rules, the same for researchers researchers have to act differently to achieve influence, level playing field and how so so if Yanuar could maybe take that question, that would be lovely.

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Laurenz Langer: Sandy, there's two questions for you within the Q and A

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Laurenz Langer: Maybe to start with the first question, which is asking if you could share some of your insights on the types of knowledge products derived from research.

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Laurenz Langer: As a, as a type of knowledge price derived from research can be more useful to policymakers. So which of these

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Laurenz Langer: Research projects that usually white papers or period papers. However, it does not always the most accessible. Think it's a question based on your initial opening send you out which of these products are most useful.

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Laurenz Langer: And Chris. If I could maybe then ask you to speak to the question by [redacted], who is asking about governments have very limited time horizon

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Laurenz Langer: For politicians and even for people, is it enough to show that the government's doing something productive, so policy violation takes time has evidence based policy makes it challenging

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Laurenz Langer: The question, what are the institutions that could promote evidence based policy making this regard.

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Laurenz Langer: I know you've asked experience audience NGO sector. So I wonder if you could talk to this question of what institutions could promote evidence based policy making.

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Laurenz Langer: And do feel free to chip in on questions that you think you have expertise to maybe we can start with generous and the ends and then Chris

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Yanuar Nugroho: Thank you. Thank you, Laurenz for the questions I think

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Yanuar Nugroho: It is not the identity piracy, but I think it is about the

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Yanuar Nugroho: HOW RESEARCHERS position themselves to, the policymakers, or the government official

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Yanuar Nugroho: If Sandy use the word Alliance, which I like it very much in policymaking we use the word champions and I found the same happens in the

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Yanuar Nugroho: Research world in Indonesia, like for example, when we want to promote this knowledge to policy approach. We look for champions within the government, meaning

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Yanuar Nugroho: Who are the policymakers, who are the the officials that we can speak to, or talk to more openly more willingly to listen.

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Yanuar Nugroho: And most importantly, that they are willing to take our advice into their policy, we call them champions. So I, and when I was there, when I sit in the office of the President.

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Yanuar Nugroho: I also try to look for researchers who can really engage with the policymakers, let me share something maybe it's not very

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Yanuar Nugroho: Lesson to here.

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Yanuar Nugroho: At the government officials. You see, they do not like I would say, you know,

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Yanuar Nugroho: In, in, in a way, researchers do. It is not about the substance. But, uh, but the way they articulate their research findings. This is how usually I acted as a, you know,

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Yanuar Nugroho: A firewall, usually to the palace, because those difficult things is when it came to my desk into my portfolio. And then what I what what what I did was usually

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Yanuar Nugroho: Try to talk with them because you know some policymakers what what MIT the playing field not level anything is the way

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Yanuar Nugroho: Researchers position themselves free happy the policymakers. I'm not saying I'm not saying that you should not be forgotten. No, I'm not saying that you should. But I think it is more about the way

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Yanuar Nugroho: We are as as researchers, provide input to the government. This is how you slowly or why you slowly. I encourage my research colleagues.

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Yanuar Nugroho: Instead of coming up with research report they come up with policy brief and then when I was inside the government. What I did was to create this

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Yanuar Nugroho: Sort of open consultation for room say once in a month or once in a week in my portfolio. Usually I would invite research purposes and and when, when I was there, but it cannot be used as you know as as a, as a rule of thumb, but what I found, working with that then

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Yanuar Nugroho: The government official would start looking at the, you know, researchers are getting mics are intellectuals who can really have them.

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Yanuar Nugroho: I wish I would use the word solve their problem. So I think it is not about the identity, which relates to say certain affiliate

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Yanuar Nugroho: Or even, you know,

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Yanuar Nugroho: When we talk about equity and inclusion and not not on that, but I think it is about the

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Yanuar Nugroho: The ability of the researchers again to find common ground or to find

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Yanuar Nugroho: An avenue in which they can engage with the policy makers and it goes both ways.

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Yanuar Nugroho: The government needs also to open themselves to make sure that they create the platform that everyone that all researchers can can can engage or can participate

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Yanuar Nugroho: I think this might my, my answer now is, it's

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Laurenz Langer: Just the thing I see you unmuted Sandy. Just checking. If you want to come in.

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Sandy Oliver: So, thank you.

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Sandy Oliver: For your question about the types of knowledge products derived from research that can be more useful to policymakers.

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Sandy Oliver: I'm a researcher. So in a way, I'm exactly the wrong person to ask

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Sandy Oliver: Though I do have some experience and researchers are not particularly good at writing implications policymakers, it's something we find difficult because policymaking isn't our world.

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Sandy Oliver: And the way that I, my colleagues get around that challenge is by having advisory groups for research.

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Sandy Oliver: Projects whether our policymakers on that group who get involved.

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Sandy Oliver: Quite near the beginning and towards the end, who helped shape the world and help interpret the findings as they emerge. They're not there to tell us what the findings are to be

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Sandy Oliver: But they will help us understand them in light of what they're seeing in the wider world. And in that way, we co produce implications for policy and I think without that co production. We do a very poor job, indeed, and I think that the

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Sandy Oliver: What the policymakers can contribute is both into shaping the format and the interpretation. The findings and really we

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Sandy Oliver: Couldn't do without them. So the particular products, I think, is for them to choose and to request, but the academic papers.

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Sandy Oliver: That don't speak well to them, then really have another purpose entirely they're part of the enterprise of accumulating knowledge there for academics to speak to other academics.

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Sandy Oliver: And then we have to do something differently in partnership with policymakers to get the messages out in sensible ways to a wider audience. Thank you.

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Chris Roche: So,

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Chris Roche: Thanks for the question on time horizons and institutions. I mean, I think, and I don't know this is not dissimilar to Yan was response in some senses, is that

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Chris Roche: If you look at examples of where they've been some quite interesting quite big shifts on policy so

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Chris Roche: I'm thinking of, say, the syntax in the Philippines, where the tax on our tobacco was raised dramatically in the face of huge opposition from tobacco farmers and beer companies.

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Chris Roche: Now that was, that was a coalition, in part, supported by the conditions for training program that I talked about earlier and and involved.

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Chris Roche: Medics who wanted to see a greater spend on health and education, health, in particular, because the syntax is work hypothesis stated for towards health and education students

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Chris Roche: But interestingly, those alliances developed into Coalition's which then brought in actually

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Chris Roche: Competitive tobacco companies onto the side of that raising taxes because that got the most votes in the in the market was, which was monopolized by other

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Chris Roche: Others, and you have very strong research evidence brought to bear on the health benefits of what raising these taxes would be if they were spent so this aligns which was a political alliance, as well as an evidence based alliance actually was what was required to bring a government

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Chris Roche: Tibet to get together. Government to change policies and it's quite clear. The government wouldn't have done it other, other than if that alliance.

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Chris Roche: And coalition had not been part of it, but even the government itself wasn't in modernism. The Health Minister was very keen on it.

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Chris Roche: And others others one. So I think there's something about this question of how Coalition's are built. And I think the new book that on thinking and working politically in the Philippines that

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Chris Roche: Gone sit down and Jaime Faustina has has recently written has got a number of case studies of how researchers activists.

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Chris Roche: Bureaucrats came together to create some of these changes and I'm always struck again by the treatment action campaign. And so, Africa and their struggle to get after the retro virals through and funded. I mean, they grew down international evidence in order to make their case.

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Chris Roche: Locally, so there's, it's not about that. There's not an interest in in activists and others drawing down international weapons, but they couldn't know where it is. It's got to be available. It can't be behind paywalls

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Chris Roche: Etc, etc. So I think there's, I think we single institutions are probably going to be doing much of the job. It's going to be Coalition's and I think the other thing is on time horizons, everyone should read Raymond crest marriage book on how to be a good ancestor.

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Laurenz Langer: Thanks for giving us some reading

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Laurenz Langer: And there's a lot of comments coming through. Also in the chat particular sandy on your partner and CO production.

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Laurenz Langer: So I think we've got time for one more round of questions is ensure that the technology will not cut us off.

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Laurenz Langer: So, but there's, it's a nice situation to be in. There's too many questions to answer them all. So I wonder if

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Laurenz Langer: I can ask Sandy and Yanuar. There's a couple of questions linked to the issue of local knowledge, and Sandy, you have already indicated, one that you'd like to answer around doing, do we need this prefix.

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Laurenz Langer: For local knowledge and that's the question around what type of institutions. So what is the role of local knowledge mean for institutions.

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Laurenz Langer: And as a further question in the chat. That's also zooming in on this. So you've both spoken to the issue of local knowledge, a little bit in your presentations.

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Laurenz Langer: So I wonder if you maybe want to address this together. The question on the chat on local knowledge is by Julia. What is, what is the purpose of distinguishing between

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Laurenz Langer: local knowledge and knowledge we stop. So it's actually the same, my apologies. So asking the two of you if you could speak to the local knowledge point

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Laurenz Langer: And Chris, I think, feel free to take any question, really. But there's one particular on the issue of metrics for measuring research obtained.

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Laurenz Langer: And I know you've done some previous work on this, on the issue of indexes and metrics. So

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Laurenz Langer: If you want to feel free to take this question, but also feel free to deviate and take any that you think is interesting. So, over to you. I think our last round of of answers. And I think maybe starting with Yanuar and Sandy and then coming to Chris

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Yanuar Nugroho: And you can start first Sandy.

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Sandy Oliver: Okay, thank you. Thank you. Julia for your question about distinguishing local knowledge and you said knowledge without a prefix and you suggested, it might be prefixed with Western

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Sandy Oliver: I actually at the moment and maybe my ideas will change. But I think of them as both having a prefix local knowledge and generalizable knowledge.

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Sandy Oliver: Where generalizable knowledge is the know what rather than the know how or, I don't know, but I think of

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Sandy Oliver: Locally rooted knowledge as having two dimensions. One is that it's it's content may vary depending on where it comes from. So it, it may vary with geography or with particular groups within a geographical area, but they really important common characteristic of it.

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Sandy Oliver: Is how its developed through social learning and adopted and inherited. It's that sort of knowledge that I'm thinking of as locally rooted

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Sandy Oliver: Different through generalizable knowledge that comes from a formal analysis of taking things apart. And hopefully, putting them back together again. Then, not necessarily always with

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Sandy Oliver: huge success.

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Sandy Oliver: And yes, I agree that quite often the generalizable knowledge is dominant. I don't think it should be. I think they should be two sides of the same coin.

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Sandy Oliver: And we, we need to

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Sandy Oliver: Bring them together and

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Sandy Oliver: In a lot of research uptake. That's a widely accepted idea, in principle, the intention is very often to bring in different groups of people who have different backgrounds and different specialists knowledge.

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Sandy Oliver: With the intention of deciding whether the generalizable knowledge is relevant to the issue at hand, whether it needs adapting to the issue at hand, or whether it should be completely dismissed.

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Sandy Oliver: I think

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Sandy Oliver: We're getting better at it slowly. There's an awful lot more to do better. So my view is that

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Sandy Oliver: Local locally rooted knowledge.

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Sandy Oliver: Is what we live and breathe in our daily lives. It's what we inherit from our families, and our communities. And it's really, really important.

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Sandy Oliver: And just as important just generalizable knowledge. I didn't think I think that that that's important. Thank you.

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Yanuar Nugroho: Thanks, Andy, I think I will just continue from what you learn. I agree completely with you about the local knowledge and generalized knowledge I, if I may, I would like to add the implication to the policy or implication to policies. Let me give you one story in

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Yanuar Nugroho: One part of central Jaffa and also another bank of so much that people that the people over there, the thing they are happy they are sufficient with what they have. They do not need anything else coming from outside.

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Yanuar Nugroho: The way they protect the environment, the way they live and also the environment around them, give them anything. Everything

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Yanuar Nugroho: And then there was a policy introducing

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Yanuar Nugroho: A plant, you know, Jaffa

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Yanuar Nugroho: The local people started to progress.

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Yanuar Nugroho: The way they protested, even they came to Jakarta in front of the presidential palace and cement that their legs. They are fit in.

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Yanuar Nugroho: So, you know, you do the fitness book in a box and then wouldn't summon so progress be I think would be Express is not an expression of anti development is not an expression of and the modernization.

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Yanuar Nugroho: But rather, how they would protect the environment they're rooted knowledge their local knowledge applied and fell out and told them what they need to do, which is to tell the government, the policymakers. No, we do not need this industry to come to our area.

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Yanuar Nugroho: I think this is where the tension comes between

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Yanuar Nugroho: What local people or local community, understand, and even live not just understand in terms of abstraction and less knowledge, but as the way of living and when

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Yanuar Nugroho: It has to face the development of policy of shins, and I think this is where for a country like Indonesia, I believe. Also, it also the case. It's also the case with other countries, other regions in the world. We so diverse, we have more than 700

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Yanuar Nugroho: Bribes, there were 700 it's a, you know, our local communities and so on and so forth. And I think it is the challenges I think for the policymakers.

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Yanuar Nugroho: Is to come up with a major have big narratives about what development is what the policy aims to do and get the support from the

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Yanuar Nugroho: From the people. And I think this is where and why it is important to engage with the local people with a local knowledge, not just

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Yanuar Nugroho: You put prefix, you know, the Western knowledge that what is good is modernization, what is good, its development policy and things like that. So I agree with Sandy and I and i i tried to contemplate more on how it implicates to the policies. Thank you. 

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Chris Roche: Thank you. So, Jordan, your question. So I put in the in the chat and in your question a link to a

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Chris Roche: Kind of big database which has got a range of approaches and tools and indicators matrix that comes out in the governance advocacy kind of space, but I think it for researchers, the questions of influence are similar.

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Chris Roche: You could have a lot of that. But in August. I mean, it wouldn't be good to end this without being bit provocative and saying,

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Chris Roche: I think we metrosized to death in this space. And I think academic certainly are, i'd moved into academia in

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Chris Roche: A few years ago. I've never seen anything so absurd in my life. And I thought, NGOs or bad 

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Chris Roche: When it comes to KPIs and output indicators and publish or perish. I mean, academia really takes the biscuit. But having said that,

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Chris Roche: And it does seem to me that we asked the question about metrics that indicators first

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Chris Roche: Rather than asking, what is the question we want to answer and maybe metrics and indicators aren't the best way of assessing that and I think

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Chris Roche: Dan Homings work on navigation by judgment which quite clearly shows that he gets

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Chris Roche: Have when frontline staff in organizations have greater autonomy to make judgments and make decisions based on the soft signal they're getting through their relationships.

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Chris Roche: Actually programs are much more effective. And so I think one of the challenges in this space, in particular when a lot of it is about building relationships co production, etc, etc.

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Chris Roche: I'm not sure a metric lead approach to how one assesses that is perhaps the most useful and maybe we can be more imaginative about

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Chris Roche: Outcome harvesting approaches which don't predetermine metrics in advance, but know that kind of relational work is important.

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Chris Roche: And there's a danger in setting up metrics and measuring relational work is that you destroy what you're trying to measure in the process of doing it as you try and measure trust you destroy it. So my provocation is don't start with the metrics. Start with somewhere else.

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Laurenz Langer: Brilliant. Thank you. Thank you to all three of you.

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Laurenz Langer: And yeah, I think, and thanks for ending us on a provocative note Chris and certainly appreciate it and hear your insights and academia fairly entertaining and do our experience here in South Africa.

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Laurenz Langer: So I think my job really is and to to close us off because we have a bit of a time

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Laurenz Langer: And this and answered questions, but we have a record of these and I think there will be some block after the webinar. We try to get to these as well. So we haven't answered your question in the session apologies, but we will get to it.

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Laurenz Langer: The webinar itself is also being recorded and will then be available online on unsettles website. And in general, if you want to know a little bit more about settled has quite a few social media activities and the website itself is a great point to

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Laurenz Langer: And yeah, so I think that leaves me then to to say, bless us thanks to all three of you for your insights, your stories.

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Laurenz Langer: Your experiences and most particularly for your honesty and thinking through this politics and it's difficult issues of engaging with them in the space.

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Laurenz Langer: Founded hugely insightful and inspiring. So thank you very much again and I hope you have a lovely day. Father, wherever you are on the world, even if it's evening coming up now and many things for joining us for the session.

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Thank you.

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Sandy Oliver: Thank you everybody for turning up

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Chris Roche: You Sandy. Thank you. Yeah, well, for all y'all. Thank you.